2020-10-08
@blumenkraft
3 years ago
my pronouns are: none.
please, do not refer to me.
even better: do not perceive me.
for practical purposes, I don't exist.
please, do not refer to me.
even better: do not perceive me.
for practical purposes, I don't exist.
only to make things clear (again) i don't dispute the existence of worker coops. i'm disputing that libertarian/anarchist policies and leftists policies can coexist. in an anarchistic/libertarian state, the one with the military comes along and steals your means of production. (because there is no government having your back).
Written with Beta.
Activity: 1 Reply, 0 Reposts, 0 Bookmarks
Discussion
@joe ooooooh
@joe I'd suggest https://www.yourmorals.org/ as well.
@igmp_join Interesting although that requires an account. Will bookmark though.
@joe this is mine.
@jacobrealo More left than I did although I was in mostly center until the mid 2010s.
@blumenkraft well they have to ask opinion on action and intent in the same question to make it easy for themselves. Analyzing the concepts before giving answers will derail its purpose; they explain themselves at the end.
@blumenkraft "left" and "right" don't have textbook definitions AFAIK, so you have to define them each time - and they do.
@33MHz i ended the test as page two since non of the questions made any sense to me. ;)
@33MHz i made a lot of tests like this before. there is one every election cycle in Germany and they always only ask policy questions and give you the party that aligns best with your ideology. this makes total sense to me. this one doesn't at all.
@blumenkraft Sure, matching questions like that, while potentially leading, is obvious. Much harder to make general observations about a person.
@33MHz i think this test is there for muddying the waters.
the only reason for state action is to choose winners and losers. and along those lines, you should vote.
the only reason for state action is to choose winners and losers. and along those lines, you should vote.
@blumenkraft A 2D scale is going to have to choose only a few things to depict. It's clear here what they're doing: https://politicalcompass.org/uselection2020. It's not to muddy anything, it's a game as far's I'm concerned.
@33MHz well, they are right with the statement that Bernie wouldn't be considered a radical leftie here.
but let me ask you, what have you learned about your ideology doing the test? does it influence your vote in November?
but let me ask you, what have you learned about your ideology doing the test? does it influence your vote in November?
@blumenkraft no, it didn't change my stances on ideological issues... I don't base my vote on party affiliation.
@blumenkraft these sorts of quizzes are most useful for relative perspective, seeing where you are with others on their subjective scales, without arguing through sensitive topics, for example.
@blumenkraft like D&D charactes building.
@33MHz LOL :)
still, there is no libertarian left. it's just not a thing. it makes no sense at all politically.
however, not basing your vote on party affiliation makes a lot of sense! that's kind of my point! :)
still, there is no libertarian left. it's just not a thing. it makes no sense at all politically.
however, not basing your vote on party affiliation makes a lot of sense! that's kind of my point! :)
@blumenkraft Its graph is left<->right economically, libertarian<->authoritarian socially. So libertarian left would be left econmically and "minimizing the role of the state" socially.
@33MHz can you give me a policy example that would fit this categorization?
@blumenkraft I think you're tying your identity up in its term too much.
@33MHz no, has nothing to do with identity at all. :)
@blumenkraft one policy likely won't encompass both social will and economic. E.g., decriminalization I'd think is more libertarian, and medicare for all is more left.
@33MHz good example! you can't be libertarian and also be against private prisons. it would make no logical sense. if prisons are merely run by the government, this is not a libertarian stands.
@33MHz and you can't be pro single payer HC as a libertarian while also being pro private insurance.
@33MHz don't get me wrong, i don't argue against the authoritarian/left angle here. or the other two. only the libertarian/left one.
@33MHz i just can't think of a single policy that would fit the libertarian/left angle. if you give me one, i might change my opinion.
@33MHz _liberal_ left would make sense. there are policies that fit this angle.
@blumenkraft But liberal isn't the opposite of authoritarian, it's more like "left" -- but really a different axis.
@33MHz How did you achieve this score? Answer every question with IDK? 😀
@33MHz why is liberal not the opposite of authoritarian?
@blumenkraft The opposite of liberal is conservative, AFAIK.
@blumenkraft "liberals want to secure this freedom through government while libertarians want this freedom without any government intervention."
@33MHz correct, and this is exactly why there is no such thing as the libertarian left. if you are on the left you want the government to back your rights!
@33MHz and there is also the 'free-market' angle with libertarians.
@blumenkraft Is that like saying atheists don't believe anything? XD
@33MHz in my initial post i wrote this:
"libertarian and left are inherently opposite ideologies. do you want your government to compromise companies' rights in favor of individuals' rights or vice versa?"
we went full circle. :P
"libertarian and left are inherently opposite ideologies. do you want your government to compromise companies' rights in favor of individuals' rights or vice versa?"
we went full circle. :P
@33MHz atheists don't believe in God. not the same thing than saying "atheists don't believe anything".
other topic though. :P
other topic though. :P
@blumenkraft It's not a binary position, though. You could say the same about left and right "authoritarians". It's a scale...
@33MHz bedtime for me. you have like 10 hours to come up with a concrete policy that's both, left and libertarian and you might convince me. :P
good night, Robert. good talking to you as always. :)
good night, Robert. good talking to you as always. :)
@blumenkraft rest well!
@33MHz thanks, mate. :)
@33MHz @igmp_join @jacobrealo So you're mostly in the center...
@jacobrealo Hey roomie! :-D
I haven't done one of these for a while. Used to be a social-liberal (in the centre of the green area), but now I seem to have drifted in to anarcho-communist territory.
// @joe
I haven't done one of these for a while. Used to be a social-liberal (in the centre of the green area), but now I seem to have drifted in to anarcho-communist territory.
// @joe
@Kabuku if politicians call themselves liberal, does that mean they are liberal?
@Kabuku i.e. Pence. he is a theocrat. i bet he has no problems calling himself liberal.
this is what you mean, no?
this is what you mean, no?
@coopey policy-wise, do you favor single-payer HC, climate action, free education, equal human rights?
@blumenkraft He might say he is "liberal" about something under the general definition, but no, he wouldn't identify himself as a liberal.
@kabuku
@kabuku
@blumenkraft Marx would be left-Authoritarian , Benjamin Ricketson Tucker would be left-Libertarian. Defund the police for justice is left-libertarian vs a right-L saying defund because I can defend myself.
@33MHz ok, you are right. Pence is like the dumbest example i could possibly choose in this context. he was just on the top of my head for some reason. the point i was trying to make is, if it's opportune for a politician, they might claim that.
@33MHz Robert, Marx authoritarian? MARX of all people??? you can't be serious. that's way worse than me claiming pence is liberal. :P
this tucker guy, IDK, don't know him or his work.
this tucker guy, IDK, don't know him or his work.
@blumenkraft so marx is more libertarian?
@33MHz Marx is for democracy in the workplace. this is not libertarian nor is it authoritarian. by no means.
@blumenkraft Marx definitely advocates for a "temporary" dictatorship of the state to establish potentially a socialist state, for the most part.
@blumenkraft that's my read.
@blumenkraft I said decriminalization was libertarian, not auth.
@blumenkraft *defunding. oops.
@33MHz the libertarian stand is 'small gov'. which means private instead of state-run prisons. the US does that. and this policy leads to mass incarceration, right? how is this a leftist policy? the left is fighting mass incarceration! ergo, inconsistent.
@33MHz defunding the police doesn't mean you just stop spending money on the problem. you give the money to, say, social workers, who then fight _the cause_ of criminality in the first place.
@33MHz that's all not at all libertarian.
@blumenkraft that's a policy attack, not a confusion about definitions. :P You can look up more on left-libertarian pretty easily. Apparently "libertarian" was initially "left"!
@33MHz again, Robert, tell me one _policy_ that is libertarian/left. this is all way too much theory here IMHO. let's do the real talk. give me an example. only one!
@33MHz apropos 'theory'. libertarians are always inconsistent. i've heard any argument they make by now. and none of them has been on the left. they are living in lalaland. when it comes down to actual policies, they break down like a house of cards.
@33MHz this is what i'm trying to say since yesterday BTW. :)
@j_r_snook looking forward to it! :) // @33MHz
@blumenkraft What is an authoritarian policy?
@33MHz if you don't do what i want you to do i fuck you up! :P
@33MHz that's me as the authority talking of course.
@blumenkraft /re h5 That's "all laws", right? All law is coerced.
@33MHz and i would add that the law did not originate in a democratic process.
@blumenkraft what law?
@33MHz hey Robert, are you trying to coerce me into the #breakfast club??? :P ;) :D
@blumenkraft I think that's not a quality of the policy but of particular regimes.
@33MHz not mutually exclusive by the nature of it, right? ;)
@blumenkraft right. But authoritarian and libertarian here are just two extremes in a scale. You might put democratic in the middle, for example. But at least they are two points you can put things between, if you know what they stand for.
@blumenkraft I'm sure I don't know what you mean. Please explain at length. 😉
@33MHz nah, democracy is the opposite of authoritarian.
snarky comment of mine: the thing in between is, say, a regime like the US.
snarky comment of mine: the thing in between is, say, a regime like the US.
@33MHz i'm getting there! :D
@blumenkraft authoritarianism is hierarchies of control, no? Gov't controlling everyday life. Coordinating every transaction. That's how libertarianism is the opposite, in my view.
@33MHz the hierarchic organization can (and often is) be a feature of an authoritarian government. that's not a political thing though. it's a question of organizing. the hierarchical nature can also be a feature of a democratic government.
@33MHz textbook definition of libertarian is "A political philosophy maintaining that all persons are the absolute owners of their own lives, and should be free to do whatever they wish with their persons or property, 1/2
@33MHz 2/2 provided they allow others that same liberty."
@blumenkraft yes, you can have authoritarian democracies. Over-simply, Authoritarian<->libertarian is the scale of how involved, not how that involvement is managed, whether it be a king or a congress etc.
@33MHz which is also basically the definition of radical anarchy BTW. this is inherently not compatible with democracy. in a democratic (leftist) society, everyone has rights and _duties_.
@blumenkraft radical anarchy doesn't have that last provision, does it? "provided they allow others that same liberty".
@33MHz yes, without a government. if you think this through, only the rich win. only corporations win. individuals rights mean nothing and there is no one providing rights.
@33MHz which brings us again back to my initial post:
libertarian and left are inherently opposite ideologies. do you want your government to compromise companies' rights in favor of individuals' rights or vice versa?
libertarian and left are inherently opposite ideologies. do you want your government to compromise companies' rights in favor of individuals' rights or vice versa?
@blumenkraft What do you mean "yes, without a gov't"?
@33MHz libertarians are all about 'small government'. they refuse to obey the government. they want to make their own laws on a regional level. what that means exactly can't be explained. no libertarian has ever answered this question in a coherent manner.
@blumenkraft "provided they allow others that same liberty" means gov't is there to ensure our individual liberties are retained, vs authoritarian gov't retaining a lot more than just our liberties.
@blumenkraft cool - will listen.
@blumenkraft having listened to a 45min one of those, I think I get why you're hung up on this concept. Authoritarian and libertarian are concrete terms and particular ideologies/identities. They're biased terms. So imperfect for comparing to other IDs
1/2
1/2
@blumenkraft but you can still make these imperfect comparisons. Left isn't opposite authoritarian and libertarian, both. Because it's positioned across multiple axes, multiple dimensions contra each other.
@blumenkraft You can still say "from authoritarian to libertarian, where is Joe Biden? From left to right, where is Donald Trump?"
@33MHz no, the point IMHO is, that authoritarianism is indeed a thing that's happening in the world. libertarianism is a theory, that's completely flawed and isn't applicable. 1/2
@33MHz 2/2 once you play it through, you end up in a dystopian society where some of the strongest survive and the individual is a enslaved. not leftist ideology at all.
@33MHz biden is a neoliberal centrist, trump is a fascist.
@33MHz this is why i said, this graph is shady from the beginning. it's way more complicated than 4 dimensions.
@33MHz and the libertarian angle in the graph shouldn't be there in the first place
@blumenkraft If you want to think of it as "authoritarian" and "the opposite of authoritarian", that probably works for the graph's purposes. Otherwise reading about left libertarian ideologies would help.
@33MHz if you really need yo reduce it to 4 dimensions, chose conservative and liberal as opposite sides IMHO. however, i don't see a reason for why you would want to reduce it to 4 dimensions.
1/2
1/2
@33MHz 2/2 i can only think of one answer to why one would want to do it: muddy the waters.
@Kabuku as i said before to Robert, i screwed up picking pence of all people in order to make my point but i see you get what i mean. opportunism over ideology in order to gain power it is for those people.
@Kabuku could you give an example where libertarian socialism is a thing?
@Kabuku yeah, ok. but can you give me an example of where this happened in real life or a policy that fits this description?
i don't mean some theory from lalaland. an actual thing that's rooted in reality. only one example.
i don't mean some theory from lalaland. an actual thing that's rooted in reality. only one example.
@Kabuku sorry, mate, but how is Spain an anarchistic state? when Mondragon Corporation was founded, Franco was in power. and today it's very much a democracy.
@Kabuku and the idea of worker coops has nothing to do with anarchy. it's very much a leftist idea.
@Kabuku bedtime here, mate. see ya tomorrow.
@blumenkraft In real life, aren't all pure ideologies theoretical? @kabuku
@j_r_snook nicely done.
@blumenkraft
@blumenkraft
@j_r_snook I rewrote it too, but yours is better.
@j_r_snook Gandhi is libertarian socialist as well.
@33MHz a little late to this... i was busy grilling @jacobrealo @joe @igmp_join
@jawzt busy grilling for five days? 😂
/@igmp_join @joe @33MHz
/@igmp_join @joe @33MHz
@jacobrealo haha centrist jokes :)
@jacobrealo @33MHz @igmp_join @jawzt That's what I was thinking...